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Should I have 2 handicaps or 3?
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bkuehn1952

Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 1378

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Should I have 2 handicaps or 3?

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GrampaB70 wrote:
Golfers do not need to follow every Rule of Golf to be able to post an acceptable score for a USGA Handicap Index. The [Handicap] Manual does not require the golfer to follow every Rule of Golf to post their score. They built in some wiggle room. Rule 5 states the golfer must post all acceptable scores in accordance with the principles of the Rules of Golf. If you or anyone else fails to post a low score because you/they took a Mulligan or took a gimmie you/they will probably be considered a sandbagger.


I think we all agree with you here. The problem is when people use Rules 3,5,6,7,8,9,10 and 12 on a regular basis. It will be almost impossible to have a handicap that will reflect a player's potential when playing within the Rules of Golf. Bending the Rules is going to result in a vanity handicap that will essentially be meaningless.

As long as you don't insist in playing in USGA Handicap competitions or wagering based on your USGA Handicap, all the rule-bending won't hurt you except when you announce you are a "5" in front of some strangers and then hit your driver 150 yards and 45 degrees off line.
 
jev

Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Posts: 699

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:46 pm    Post subject:

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One thing to understand is that not everyone lives in the US and handicapping rules differ all over the world. Teeing it forward will in my country reduce the playing handicap of the course and thus that is compensated for.

Second, in order to break the rules, you first must know them. You obviously don't. In strokeplay, there is no penalty for playing out of turn unless it is done with the sole purpose of gaining an unfair advantage. "Ready golf" is not against the RoG.

Now, where I absolutely draw the line is gimmies and other breaches of the Rules like droppping a ball where you think it should be but cannot find it or just dropping a ball close to where it is OoB. These things are in the mentioned set of 'alternative rules' or whatever you want to call it and they go directly against the spirit of the game.

If you ever would try to pull stunts like that during a qualifying round where I would be your marker, I would refuse to sign your scorecard. You cheated and thus DQ.

Do you really want a vanity handicap? Just go ahead, find yourself a marker that doesn't care. But don't try to carry 2 handicaps - chances are you wouldn't use that in a tournament either.


Last edited by jev on Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
GrampaB70
Joined: 17 Mar 2012
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Should I have 2 handicaps or 3?

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bkuehn1952 wrote:


As long as you don't insist in playing in USGA Handicap competitions or wagering based on your USGA Handicap, all the rule-bending won't hurt you except when you announce you are a "5" in front of some strangers and then hit your driver 150 yards and 45 degrees off line.


Only a few of us are ever a 5 in our best dreams. Certainly not in mine.

The Modified Rules of Golf were intended ONLY for the casual amateur golfer and are suggestions primarily on how to improve the pace of play.

While I do wager a little while golfing, never with strangers. If I loose I would doubt their handicap and if I win I know he would question mine. But since it is a vanity handicap I am only hurting myself, and maybe my playing partners. My competitors should not complain that my handicap is too low.

Remember, studies show that less than 20% of amateur golfers maintain a USGA Handicap Index. For all the rest playing faster would help all of us.
GrampaB70
Joined: 17 Mar 2012
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:06 pm    Post subject:

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jev wrote:


If you ever would try to pull stunts like that during a qualifying round where I would be your marker, I would refuse to sign your scorecard. You cheated and thus DQ.

Do you really want a vanity handicap? Just go ahead, find yourself a marker that doesn't care. But don't try to carry 2 handicaps - chances are you wouldn't use that in a tournament either.


We seem to have a failure to communicate. You seem to be talking about formal golf or tournament golf. The Modified Rules of Golf are suggestions to amateur golfers on a casual day of golf.

You don't seem to grasp the idea that for some guys 2 handicaps are required. First a golfer may want to maintain a USGA Handicap Index by posting all acceptable scores. Even assuming they play by all the Rules of Golf all the time some Men's Clubs will not accept that Handicap. The Club creates their own handicap for each member based only on their play during Club events and require their members to use that handicap in the Men's Club competition. Thus they have 2 handicaps, no choice. Sometimes they are the same but sometimes they are different.

This way the Club prevents a member from somehow always playing better during Club competition than they do on other days.
 
jev

Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Posts: 699

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:15 pm    Post subject:

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An American golfing at the Old Course in St. Andrews, Scotland sliced his opening drive out of bounds. He tees another one up and smacks it down the middle.

The golfer turns to his old Scottish caddy and tells him that in America that is called a "Mulligan." He asks if there is a name for it in Scotland.

The caddy replies, "AYE, we call it a three."
---------8<--------------

Anyway, I fail to see why an official handicap would not be acceptable for the men's club. Basically, these guys on forehand seem to accuse their fellow clubmembers to carry an inflated handicap, nothing short of calling them sandbaggers. Quite a nice group of guys that must be.
GrampaB70
Joined: 17 Mar 2012
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:31 pm    Post subject:

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jev wrote:
An American golfing at the Old Course in St. Andrews, Scotland sliced his opening drive out of bounds. He tees another one up and smacks it down the middle.

The golfer turns to his old Scottish caddy and tells him that in America that is called a "Mulligan." He asks if there is a name for it in Scotland.

The caddy replies, "AYE, we call it a three."
---------8<--------------

Anyway, I fail to see why an official handicap would not be acceptable for the men's club. Basically, these guys on forehand seem to accuse their fellow clubmembers to carry an inflated handicap, nothing short of calling them sandbaggers. Quite a nice group of guys that must be.


It only takes one or 2 guys of concern to cause this rule.

Another thought on the Mulligans. Have you ever played 36 holes in one day? 2 Rounds on the same course? Well some of us plan to do that each time we golf. But if our first swing on our first round is no good we assume the whole round will be awful. So we skip the rest of the first round and proceed with our second round of the day and tee off again. Since we did not complete enough holes in our first round we have nothing to score for that.

But in tournaments we have to complete our first round.
 
player

Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 480

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:37 pm    Post subject:

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Gimmees only apply in match play.
GrampaB70
Joined: 17 Mar 2012
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:25 am    Post subject: Should I have 2 handicaps or 3?

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#7 of the Modified Rules of Golf suggests playing by Winter Rules (preferred lies) year around on a day of casual golf. Doing so does not make your score unacceptable for posting if you maintain a USGA Handicap Index. See USGA Handicap Manual Decision 4-2/1 which states in part:

"If a player uses a distance (only) measuring device or plays a round under preferred lies, regardless of the Local Rule established, the score remains acceptable for handicap purposes."
GrampaB70
Joined: 17 Mar 2012
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:57 am    Post subject: Should I have 2 handicaps or 3?

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I am still working my way through the Modified Rules of Golf to see if I should post my scores if I use some of those suggestions.

#11 addresses when to pick up and enjoy the view, or go pout. If you do not post your scores you can pick up whenever you want to do so and #11 suggests you at least pick up when you have reached double par on a hole.

The USGA Handicap Manual says the maximum score you can post is your ESC score. So if you pick up when you have reached that number or greater you certainly can post that score. No citation needed.
 
jev

Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Posts: 699

PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:45 am    Post subject:

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If there is one or two sandbaggers in that group, it would be much better to tall to the handicapping authority. Just don't mis-use the the system for it. One either plays the game of golf or one fools around on the golfcourse.

Now, you say 80% of all golfers don't keep a handicap as if it's a bad thing. The really bad thing IMHO are the ones that keep a fake handicap for whatever reason. The game is built on trust, on honour. There is no honour in pretending something you are not.

Do I ever play 36 holes in a day? Yes, I do. Is it hard if you start the first hole with an OoB ball? Certainly! Does that mean I'll skip the rest of the round? Ofcourse not, that's just plain silly.

Here is an idea: instead of posting these fake rounds, ask the USGA how they think about it....
GrampaB70
Joined: 17 Mar 2012
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:54 am    Post subject: Should I have 2 handicaps or 3?

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I have reviewed 2 more sections of the Modified Rules of Golf.
#12 No harm, no foul, and
#13 Rule interpretation.

Clearly these are different than the Rules of Golf or they would not be listed as Modified Rules.

Now we have 2 questions.

First, for those golfers who are not posting their scores and are just golfing for fun, who cares? They should play however they want as long as they can keep up the pace of play. Studies have shown less than 20% of golfers maintain a USGA Handicap Index. And who cares about that other than the USGA?

The second question is can or should a golfer post their score following these guidelines? There will be a difference of opinion but I have concluded yes they should if they record their score properly on each hole.

The USGA Handicap Manual seems to recognize the No Harm No Foul concept in Decision 4-2/1 which states i part:
"The phrase " in accordance with the principles of the Rules of Golf " refers to situations where the player has played a hole in such a manner that the score would be sufficiently accurate to be used for handicap computation purposes. Occasionally, holes are not played strictly in accordance with the Rules of Golf. Thus, flexibility has been provided in the USGA Handicap System for a score to remain acceptable for handicap posting purposes in certain situations. This policy better ascertains the player's potential ability by attempting to capture more scores for handicap purposes than just those made in accordance with the Rules of Golf."

There is not a Rules Committee reviewing scores on casual days of golf. In Decision 4-1/1 of the Manual each player is the sole arbiter of their proper score to post.
GrampaB70
Joined: 17 Mar 2012
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:56 am    Post subject: Should I have 2 handicaps or 3?

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#5 of the Modified Rules of Golf involves Water Hazards. It allows a golfer to drop their ball parallel to where their ball landed rather than where it crossed the hazard line, with a one stroke penalty. This improves the pace of play by giving the golfer their distance.
For the casual golfer who does not post their score, who cares?
But if used by a golfer who posts their scores, may they post or must they post their score for the day?

I believe the Manual requires the golfer to record the hole score correctly and then post the score for the day. So how to score the hole correctly?
If you feel you have played the hole by the Principles of the Rules of Golf, record your score. If you don't feel you have followed the Principles of the Rules of golf, see my next post.
GrampaB70
Joined: 17 Mar 2012
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:09 pm    Post subject: Should I have 2 handicaps or 3?

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Water Hazard, continued.
Now we have 2 sections of the USGA Handicap Manual to review to see what score to post for the hole, with your ESC score as the maximum.

The lowest score you can record for this hole is Par plus your handicap strokes per Section 4-2 of the Manual.

Or you might consider that you did not finish the hole by the Rules and Section 4-1 applies. Decision 4-1/1 says in part: "Q: Section 4, adjusting hole scores, says that a player who starts but does not complete a hole records for handicap purposes the "most likely score."" "A: Most likely score is a judgment that each player must make based on the player's own game. It consists of the number of strokes already taken plus, in the player's best judgment, the number of strokes needed to complete the hole from that position more than half the time."

How better to determine how many more strokes you would need than to finish playing the hole?
GrampaB70
Joined: 17 Mar 2012
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:44 am    Post subject: Should I have 2 handicaps or 3?

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When I started this thread I mentioned the handicap provided by the Men's Club and later discussed why I thought they did that. After further investigation seems I was wrong.

The Club allows members to use either the White Tees or the Gold Tees regardless of age or handicap. The only requirement is that they use the same set of Tees all season in Club competition. They can use whatever Tees they want on other days. Personally I think this is a very good approach. Members compete from both sets of Tees with the members using the Gold having the appropriate reduction in their handicap since the Rating of the Gold Tees is less than the White.

The Club feels establishing a handicap using the same Tees that will be used in competition more accurately indicates that members potential from those Tees. That makes sense to me.

I guess if someone does not like that process they just don't join the Club.
GrampaB70
Joined: 17 Mar 2012
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:01 pm    Post subject: Should I have 2 handicaps or 3?

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I think I have come to a conclusion as to what I should do. I will maintain only 1 Handicap and the Club will also maintain one that I must use in Club competition.

Today I received by updated GHIN report that included the following information:

"Two basic premises underlie the USGA Handicap System, namely that each player will try to make the best score at every hole in every round, regardless of where the round is played, and that the player will post every acceptable round for peer review." - USGA Handicap System Manual

"Most Likely Score vs. Par Plus Stroke(s)

It is a requirement of the USGA Handicap System that each player is required to record a hole score for a hole not finished, not played or not played under the Principles of the Rules of Golf. When either of these situations occurs, how do I come up with a score for that hole?

If you start a hole, but do not finish either because you picked your ball up or your stroke was conceded by your opponent, your score for handicap purposes would be the most likely score. The most likely score includes all strokes already taken plus, in your best judgment, the number of strokes you would take to complete the hole from that position more than half the time. Your most likely score may not exceed your ESC limit. Examples of using the Most Likely Score method would include picking your ball up in a four-ball stroke play event when your partner has holed out in less strokes than you have taken or when your opponent in match play has conceded your next stroke. There is no limit to the number of unfinished holes a player may have in a round, provided the failure to finish is not for the purpose of handicap manipulation.

If you do not play a hole or do not play it under the Principles of the Rules of Golf, you must record a score equal to the normal par for the hole plus any handicap strokes that you are entitled to receive on the hole."

So, it seems to me, regardless of how I play a hole I need to record an acceptable score for that hole and post my overall score for the day. The proper score for a hole might be my actual score, my most likely score, my ESC score or a score equal to par plus my handicap strokes. And, in my case, if I am going to play as well as possible I need to use the Gold Tees.
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