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Rules Quiz 2012.
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birdieXris

Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 1005

PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:52 am    Post subject:

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Bryan K wrote:
jev wrote:
It is a bit strange, but yes, the abandoned ball is a movable obstruction that may be removed from the hazard. And exception #1 in rule 13-4 seems to say you may touch the water when removing obstructions from the hazard. It's just very bad form, but I don't think the player will be penalized for this.

Question 10:
10) A competitor, whose ball is lying in a bunker, takes his stance and grounds his club four inches behind the ball. Gravity then causes the ball to move. He replaces the ball and plays a stroke. The competitor has incurred:
a. One penalty stroke.
b. Two penalty strokes.
c. Three penalty strokes.
d. Four penalty strokes.


Now, this one I think can spark a bit of debate. Obsiously, being in a bunker, the player is not allowed to ground his club. But he does and thus he addresses the ball. Or does he not? See the definition of "addressing the ball"! I am told the USGA Rules courses dictate "immediately behind" to mean "any closer or he would touch the ball" or "up to 1/4 inch". Has anyone here attended a USGA Rules course lately?


I don’t think whether or not he is deemed to have addressed the ball is relevant due to the exception in rule 18-2b that states “If it is known or virtually certain that the player did not cause his ball to move, Rule 18-2b does not apply.” This precise exception came up in one of the previous questions as well. So my interpretation is that when the ball rolled backwards due to gravity, which is not an outside agent, it must be played as it lies. He should incur two strokes for grounding his club for sure.

Now under rule 20-7c, I believe he is forced to take another accrued two-stroke penalty for playing from the wrong spot (provided the rules committee hasn’t determined that he is in serious breach).
So I believe that the correct answer is D.


Good call there, I read right over that exception.
Rulesman
Joined: 07 Feb 2012
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:16 pm    Post subject:

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18-2b/11
Ball Moved by Another Agency After Address

Q.After a player has addressed his ball in play, some other agency (e.g., a ball played by another player) moves the player's ball. Is the player subject to penalty under Rule 18-2b?

A.No. As it is known or virtually certain that the player did not cause the ball to move, Rule 18-2b does not apply - see Exception under Rule 18-2b. In such a case where an agency directly causes a ball to move, the Rule applicable to that agency (e.g., Rule 18-1, 18-2a, 18-3, 18-4 or 18-5) applies.

The same principle applies if it is known or virtually certain that a ball in play has been moved by wind, water or some other element after the player has addressed it; there is no penalty and the ball must be played from its new location. Gravity is not in itself an element that should be considered when applying the Exception to Rule 18-2b; therefore, unless it is known or virtually certain that some agency other than gravity (e.g., outside agency or wind) caused the ball to move after address, the player is subject to a one stroke penalty under Rule 18-2b and must replace the ball. (Revised)
 
jev

Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Posts: 672

PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:18 pm    Post subject:

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Bryan K wrote:

I don’t think whether or not he is deemed to have addressed the ball is relevant due to the exception in rule 18-2b that states “If it is known or virtually certain that the player did not cause his ball to move, Rule 18-2b does not apply.”

....true, but decision 18-2b/11 specifically names gravity:
Quote:
"Gravity is not in itself an element that should be considered when applying the Exception to Rule 18-2b; therefore, unless it is known or virtually certain that some agency other than gravity (e.g. outside agency or wind) caused the ball to move after address, the player is subject to a one stroke penalty under Rule 18-2b and must replace the ball. (Revised)"

Isn't it fun? An exception to the exception Very Happy

Anyway, if he addressed: since he replaced the ball, I think he would get the one stroke penalty from 18-2b and another 2 for grounding in a hazard => c.

If he did not address it, 18-2b does not apply at all. He than did replace the ball, which is not allowed and thus he plays from a wrong place. That would be 2 strokes + 2 more for grounding makes 4 => answer d.

I'm confused now, luckily these things never seem to happen in real life Very Happy

Also, I start to feel lucky to never play with a caddie:
11) A competitor decides his ball lying in a water hazard is unplayable. He asks his caddie to retrieve the ball and tells him where to drop it in the hazard. The caddie substitutes another ball for the original ball and puts it into play by tossing it underhanded into the hazard rather than following the procedure of Rule 20-2a. The competitor makes a stroke at the ball. The competitor has incurred how many penalty strokes?
a. Two
b. Three
c. Four
d. Five

I'ld say: strike the caddie! Twisted Evil


Edit: I see that Rulesman posted at the same time. We are in sync mate! Very Happy
Bryan K

Joined: 14 May 2009
Posts: 2437

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:30 am    Post subject:

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jev wrote:
Bryan K wrote:

I don’t think whether or not he is deemed to have addressed the ball is relevant due to the exception in rule 18-2b that states “If it is known or virtually certain that the player did not cause his ball to move, Rule 18-2b does not apply.”

....true, but decision 18-2b/11 specifically names gravity:
Quote:
"Gravity is not in itself an element that should be considered when applying the Exception to Rule 18-2b; therefore, unless it is known or virtually certain that some agency other than gravity (e.g. outside agency or wind) caused the ball to move after address, the player is subject to a one stroke penalty under Rule 18-2b and must replace the ball. (Revised)"

Isn't it fun? An exception to the exception Very Happy


This is where I"m going to raise a stink.

If gravity is an exception, then it needs to be stated so in the rules. If it is only stated so in the decisions, that means that some bloke somewhere along the line made up a rule that is not in the rulebook in order to address a certain situation,and I can't abide by that. That's no different than a typicall Sunday golfer making up his own rules as he goes along. The Decisions on the Rules of Golf exist to clarify existing rules...not make new ones.
Bryan K

Joined: 14 May 2009
Posts: 2437

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:33 am    Post subject:

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Rulesman wrote:
Bryan K wrote:

Quote:
Next!
4) It is a calm day with no wind. A competitor’s ball lies on an incline next to a deep bunker. He addresses his ball and then steps away. As he begins to take his stance the ball rolls into the bunker. The competitor asserts he did nothing to cause the ball to move and suggests gravity was the reason. He plays his next shot from the bunker. What is the ruling?
a. The competitor incurs a one-stroke penalty.
b. The competitor incurs a two-stroke penalty.
c. The competitor committed a serious breach of playing from a wrong place, incurs a two-stroke penalty and must correct his error.
d. The competitor proceeded correctly.


I think this one is easy, but I consulted the rules just to be sure. Rule 18-2b specifically addresses this with an exception that reads: "If it is known or virtually certain that the player did not cause his ball to move, Rule 18-2b does not apply." From the wording of the question, it is known or virtually certain that he did nothing to cause the ball to move. So the correct answer would be D.


Have you considered Decision 18-2b/11?

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-18/#18-2b/11


No. Because in my eyes, a decision that contradicts the rules is faulty. I can only hope that whoever made that decision was fired by the comitte and replaced by someone who knows how to read.
Bryan K

Joined: 14 May 2009
Posts: 2437

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:47 am    Post subject:

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jev wrote:

Also, I start to feel lucky to never play with a caddie:
11) A competitor decides his ball lying in a water hazard is unplayable. He asks his caddie to retrieve the ball and tells him where to drop it in the hazard. The caddie substitutes another ball for the original ball and puts it into play by tossing it underhanded into the hazard rather than following the procedure of Rule 20-2a. The competitor makes a stroke at the ball. The competitor has incurred how many penalty strokes?
a. Two
b. Three
c. Four
d. Five

I'ld say: strike the caddie! Twisted Evil


He incurs a one stroke penalty for having his caddy drop the ball under rule 20-2a.

He incurs two more strokes of penalty by playing the ball in the wrong place as per rule 20-7c.

Correct answer id b. Three strokes.
 
mjaber

Joined: 17 Feb 2009
Posts: 1152

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:51 am    Post subject:

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Bryan K wrote:
jev wrote:

Also, I start to feel lucky to never play with a caddie:
11) A competitor decides his ball lying in a water hazard is unplayable. He asks his caddie to retrieve the ball and tells him where to drop it in the hazard. The caddie substitutes another ball for the original ball and puts it into play by tossing it underhanded into the hazard rather than following the procedure of Rule 20-2a. The competitor makes a stroke at the ball. The competitor has incurred how many penalty strokes?
a. Two
b. Three
c. Four
d. Five

I'ld say: strike the caddie! Twisted Evil


He incurs a one stroke penalty for having his caddy drop the ball under rule 20-2a.

He incurs two more strokes of penalty by playing the ball in the wrong place as per rule 20-7c.

Correct answer id b. Three strokes.


Isn't there also a penalty for not completing the hole with the same ball?
Bryan K

Joined: 14 May 2009
Posts: 2437

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:17 am    Post subject:

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mjaber wrote:
Bryan K wrote:
jev wrote:

Also, I start to feel lucky to never play with a caddie:
11) A competitor decides his ball lying in a water hazard is unplayable. He asks his caddie to retrieve the ball and tells him where to drop it in the hazard. The caddie substitutes another ball for the original ball and puts it into play by tossing it underhanded into the hazard rather than following the procedure of Rule 20-2a. The competitor makes a stroke at the ball. The competitor has incurred how many penalty strokes?
a. Two
b. Three
c. Four
d. Five

I'ld say: strike the caddie! Twisted Evil


He incurs a one stroke penalty for having his caddy drop the ball under rule 20-2a.

He incurs two more strokes of penalty by playing the ball in the wrong place as per rule 20-7c.

Correct answer id b. Three strokes.


Isn't there also a penalty for not completing the hole with the same ball?


I would think that either 15-2 or 20-7c would apply, but not both. It would effectively be penalizing the player twice for the same action. However, after going over it, I think that 15-2 is more applicable than 20-2a.
 
jev

Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Posts: 672

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:29 pm    Post subject:

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Bryan K wrote:
If gravity is an exception, then it needs to be stated so in the rules. If it is only stated so in the decisions, that means that some bloke somewhere along the line made up a rule that is not in the rulebook in order to address a certain situation,and I can't abide by that.

I can't agree more with ya. The same can be said for question 2 about an agreement to halve a hole in matchplay - that seems impossible within the rules (one can concede a stroke, a hole or a match but nowhere in the rules is halving a hole mentioned).

As for Q11:
- 2 penalty strokes for declaring a ball unplayable in a WH
- 1 penalty stroke for having the caddie drop the ball
- 2 strokes for playing from the wrong position

So I think answer d: 5.

Note: I think substituting the ball is not penalizable (is that a word?) because of the exception in 15-2 as this was played from the wrong place.

But if this happened in reality, I would consider to disqualify him for a serious breach of the rules.

Next question:
12) In four-ball match play, during a search for a ball, a player's partner does not see the player’s ball lying through the green and runs over it with their golf cart. After inspecting the area where the ball was embedded, the players cannot say for certain where the original ball lay prior to being run over. What is the ruling?
a. The partner incurs a penalty stroke and the player is entitled to drop the ball in accordance with Rule 25-2.
b. The player incurs a penalty stroke and he must place the ball in the nearest lie most similar to the original lie within one club-length not nearer the hole.
c. Since the ball was moved during search, in equity the player was entitled to place his ball as near as possible to the estimated original spot not nearer the hole without penalty to either partner.
d. The player incurs a penalty stroke and he must drop the ball as close as possible to the estimated original spot not nearer the hole.
Bryan K

Joined: 14 May 2009
Posts: 2437

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:26 pm    Post subject:

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jev wrote:
I can't agree more with ya. The same can be said for question 2 about an agreement to halve a hole in matchplay - that seems impossible within the rules (one can concede a stroke, a hole or a match but nowhere in the rules is halving a hole mentioned).


Good point. I had just assumed that such an agreement was admissable, but a close inspection of the rules provides no allowance for it.

I have a hard time with this because no one carries a decisions book with them on the course. Now normally, I'm not a "rules snob". I like to know the rules for my own benefit. But if I'm playing a competition, they definitely come into play.

Quote:

Next question:
12) In four-ball match play, during a search for a ball, a player's partner does not see the player’s ball lying through the green and runs over it with their golf cart. After inspecting the area where the ball was embedded, the players cannot say for certain where the original ball lay prior to being run over. What is the ruling?
a. The partner incurs a penalty stroke and the player is entitled to drop the ball in accordance with Rule 25-2.
b. The player incurs a penalty stroke and he must place the ball in the nearest lie most similar to the original lie within one club-length not nearer the hole.
c. Since the ball was moved during search, in equity the player was entitled to place his ball as near as possible to the estimated original spot not nearer the hole without penalty to either partner.
d. The player incurs a penalty stroke and he must drop the ball as close as possible to the estimated original spot not nearer the hole.


I'm going by rote memory on this one because it comes up from time to time. The correct answer should be C. A player does not get penalized for accidentally moving a ball while conducting a search.
 
player

Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 480

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:11 pm    Post subject:

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I don`t know why it works this way, but if your ball is moved by a partner, you get penalized, not your partner.
The answer is B
 
H Head

Joined: 28 Jul 2009
Posts: 115

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:00 am    Post subject:

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birdieXris wrote:
Bryan K wrote:
jev wrote:
It is a bit strange, but yes, the abandoned ball is a movable obstruction that may be removed from the hazard. And exception #1 in rule 13-4 seems to say you may touch the water when removing obstructions from the hazard. It's just very bad form, but I don't think the player will be penalized for this.

Question 10:
10) A competitor, whose ball is lying in a bunker, takes his stance and grounds his club four inches behind the ball. Gravity then causes the ball to move. He replaces the ball and plays a stroke. The competitor has incurred:
a. One penalty stroke.
b. Two penalty strokes.
c. Three penalty strokes.
d. Four penalty strokes.


Now, this one I think can spark a bit of debate. Obsiously, being in a bunker, the player is not allowed to ground his club. But he does and thus he addresses the ball. Or does he not? See the definition of "addressing the ball"! I am told the USGA Rules courses dictate "immediately behind" to mean "any closer or he would touch the ball" or "up to 1/4 inch". Has anyone here attended a USGA Rules course lately?


I don’t think whether or not he is deemed to have addressed the ball is relevant due to the exception in rule 18-2b that states “If it is known or virtually certain that the player did not cause his ball to move, Rule 18-2b does not apply.” This precise exception came up in one of the previous questions as well. So my interpretation is that when the ball rolled backwards due to gravity, which is not an outside agent, it must be played as it lies. He should incur two strokes for grounding his club for sure.

Now under rule 20-7c, I believe he is forced to take another accrued two-stroke penalty for playing from the wrong spot (provided the rules committee hasn’t determined that he is in serious breach).
So I believe that the correct answer is D.


Good call there, I read right over that exception.


I do not believe you can incur 2 separate penalties (IE: 2 - 2 stroke penalties-4 strokes) for events taking place during the course of 1 swing. I did not bother to look anything up...but I would wager on it. Therefore the correct answer to this would be 2 stroke penalty.
 
player

Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 480

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:54 pm    Post subject:

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It would be 2 penalty shots for grounding the club. As the player did not cause the ball to move after address, he incurs no penalty because of the new rule.
 
jev

Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Posts: 672

PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:49 pm    Post subject:

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Bryan K wrote:

I'm going by rote memory on this one because it comes up from time to time. The correct answer should be C. A player does not get penalized for accidentally moving a ball while conducting a search.

In strokeplay you would have been right. Unfortunately, this is matchplay and thus 1 penalty stroke for the player (18-3b) - the ball is not covered by sand and it's not in a hazard or GUR. Thus the exceptions in 12-1 do not apply. I think Player actually is right and d) is the right answer.

Question 13 (we're half way!):
13) In stroke play, a player’s tee shot creates a small pitch mark in the fairway approximately 140 yards from the green and approximately five yards in front of where his ball comes to rest on his line of play. Before he makes his next stroke, he notices the pitch mark and taps it down. The player then plays his stroke over the pitch mark with a nine iron. What is the ruling?
a. The player has incurred no penalty.
b. The player has incurred a one-stroke penalty.
c. The player has incurred a two-stroke penalty.
d. The player has incurred a two-stroke penalty and must replay the previous stroke.
bkuehn1952

Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 1295

PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:29 pm    Post subject:

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jev wrote:


Question 13 (we're half way!):
13) In stroke play, a player’s tee shot creates a small pitch mark in the fairway approximately 140 yards from the green and approximately five yards in front of where his ball comes to rest on his line of play. Before he makes his next stroke, he notices the pitch mark and taps it down. The player then plays his stroke over the pitch mark with a nine iron. What is the ruling?
a. The player has incurred no penalty.
b. The player has incurred a one-stroke penalty.
c. The player has incurred a two-stroke penalty.
d. The player has incurred a two-stroke penalty and must replay the previous stroke.


Improving the line is a two stroke penaly - c.
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